proviron and gyno

[genesys]

Im curious as to the general opinion regarding proviron usage and gyno prevention. I had assumed it common knowledge that proviron is not a good choice for controlling estrogen, but perhaps I was wrong in assuming that. I know that I believe it to be a very poor choice, and I will be happy to explain why, but am I in the minority opinion here ?

 

[BACoach]

proviron isnt an AI. gyno comes from prolactin or from estrogen conversion from test. old gyno cannot really be taken away, in best cases it could be made little smaller and with new gyno AI are what you need. proviron was made to increase free test and thus libido in men, in higher dosages some report that it does keep some water down but its nowhere near an AI for preventing gyno 9or caber for prolactin)

 

[Mrx]

I don't know much about proviron, just starting using it myself. But I was talking to a old school guy, who's been on gear 40 years now he was telling me his friend always got gyno flare ups and proviron would knock it out quick for him. It was hard for me to believe but I guess everybody different


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[anabol69]

I know a couple guys who strictly use Proviron when they are on cycle.

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[Daredevil]

I agree with BACoach. Take test continue the same cycle without AI at all and then start using proviron. It hardly does anything for estrogen.

 

[Daredevil]

Confirm it through labwork and see

 

[lith56bigguy]

I stay on proviron at 50mg daily and up that during cycle. I've noticed a much fuller look and feel and as stated obvious better libido as I'm no spring chicken. I always used an alternate AI anytime while on cycle.

 

[krustus]

I think a dht...like proviron or masteron. . Is a good addition to a legit AI in gyno treatment...

Is proviron a better bang for the buck than mast e?... I love mast e for libido boost, etc...

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[Hugebro]

I found that Exemistane is best for an AI as it is a suicide inhibitor {taking EOD with no sides for me at least). I rarely get gygno flare ups (sore nips) , but when I do I take Exemistane and it goes away after a few days.

Proviron is great for me in that it helps with mood and libido (helps negate npp sides I get) . Oh and not to mention a harder feel to the muscles . Freeing up some test to kind of make what I pin a higher MG pin so to speak. I also stay on Proviron all the time (50mg off cycle, 75mg + on cycle) . . Definitely not a gyno preventative though for me

 

[genesys]

This may sound strange, maybe even ridiculous, but Proviron can actually be a CAUSE of gyno, instead of a preventive measure !

As many of you already know, Proviron binds to SHBG preferentially to testosterone, thus increasing levels of free T without having to increase dosage. More free T is highly desirable of course, but as with everything, there is a price
attached, in this case, more free T means more T available for aromatizing into estrogens which ultimately leads to elevated estrogen levels. This assumes that no steps are taken to moderate the process,of course its a different story when AI's are brought into play.

Less well know is the fact that Proviron displaces not only testosterone from SHBG, but estrogen as well. In fact, since the binding affinity of estradiol to SHBG is considerably less than that of testosterone to SHBG, it gets displaced even more readily than does testosterone. As a result, estrogen levels receive yet another boost that can be directly attributed to Proviron.

To the best of my knowledge, Proviron has never been the subject of a legitimate study for possible anti estrogen effects, so its reputation as an anti E is purely anecdotal and not based on hard fact. Of course, this is true for quite a few things
in the AAS world, probably the majority of what we do is "undocumentated". I firmly believe in real world, empirical evidence, and to me at least, the evidence that Proviron has any significant anti E effect is not compelling, especially when compared to a "true" AI.

Im not knocking Proviron, its a great addition to almost any cycle and one of my personal favorites. For some people, it may well be all they need for an anti E, although those same lucky individuals probably dont need an anti E at all, cant beat genetics ! Im just saying that for many, perhaps most people, relying on Proviron as your sole anti E may prove to be an unpleasant mistake.

 

[Thor]

2 and 3 are why I have used it and it works, the wife can attest to some of it,LOL. at 100 mg a day felt like I had a brick hanging between my legs " wife was like damn that's heavy" ust my experience but I like proviron

compound cannot be used for PCT.
Bodybuilders use proviron for four main reasons outlined below:
1) As a result of proviron's atomic structure it is incapable of forming estrogen. Therefore, due to the increased strength (in comparison to testosterone) in its binding ability to 'latch-on' to the estrogen binding enzymes, it prevents estrogen build-up.
2) As previously mentioned, proviron increases the amount of free testosterone in the male human body. This is a very important point to consider, since approximately ~98% of testosterone is bound to the sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG), thus, since it is bound to the SHBG it is not free testosterone any more and therefore cannot be used to build muscle.
3) As a DHT derivative, proviron contributes towards a feeling of 'well being' (commonly referred to as anabolic well-being) in males, thus it has been used to treat depression in men in the past. Additionally, bodybuilders use it to 'dry up' for competitions, however Masteron is the preferred choice and considered as a better option (proviron has been named as an oral masteron - this topic is debateable). The increase in hardness comes from a reduction in free estrogen levels, thus decreasing water retention.
4) Proviron is frequently used with compounds such as deca - as it adds an androgenic component to the cycle. Thus preventing a loss in male libido and impotence and helps a males sex-drive upto a certain point. However, it makes much more sense to use testosterone (and compounds like prop, tne, suspension) which are very useful since it's a natural sexual hormone.
A dosage of 25mg ED is considered to be an effective dosage for proviron.
To finalise supplementation of 25mg proviron a day during 19-nor-progesterone cycle will help to aid and (i use this word with caution) amplify the effects of that particular cycle, since there is in increase in free testosterone, which is what the human body utilises to build muscle.

 

[krustus]

The guy Eric.. that ran primordial performance. ... had a great article about DHT and gyno... made a lot if sense when I read it... I'll try to find a link to it

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[ElChango]

I ran it 50 mg for a week and i was getting gyno flare ups and sensitive nips! even some water coming out of the nips. never had this before with proviron. I had pharm grade proviron and it wasn't doing this to me, just horny all the time and crazy pumps in the gym. LOL i have no idea, but i stopped taking it and now am taking Raloxifene and Aromasin to get it under control. Its the only thing i have added. Also ordered some Prolactrone cause i just want to be safe.

 

[krustus]

primordial article...


Most people think the only way to combat gyno is to use Nolvadex or Clomid. Considering the undesirable side-effects of these drugs, I generally don’t prefer these as the first line of defense. I have expressed my concerns about SERM’s in my article – Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side.

In this article I summarize alternative methods for combating the occurrence of gyno. The advice given in this article is the result of over 10 years experience in counseling individuals with AAS induced gyno.

If you have gyno as a result of an endocrine disorder, I advise consulting your doctor before making changes to your prescribed medical regimen.


You Do Not Have Gyno!


During mammary tissue growth (the onset of gyno), you may notice the following symptoms -

* Puffy or swollen nipples
* Overly sensitive nipples
* Itchiness around the nipples

Editorial note: I promise -- that is the last time I will ever say nipples.

Now, just because you may have these symptoms does not mean you HAVE GYNO. It simply means that you HAVE GYNO SYMPTOMS. Remember, it is normal to have a small flat pea sized lump under the nipple. This is NOT gyno.

Now, if you allow these above symptoms to progress for several weeks then you may develop gyno. So if you are experiencing any of the above symptoms then you are smart to take action before it’s too late – But please stop emailing me saying you “have gyno” after 3 days on a cycle – this is physiologically impossible.

The good news is that even if you do have a slight case of gyno that you developed from a cycle, it’s probably 100% reversible. Read on…

Nipples.


Gyno Hysteria


No level of gyno is “permanent”. Any level of gyno can be reversed by dietary, supplemental and/or hormonal intervention. Mammary tissue (gyno) can be catabolized like any other tissue in the body. It’s just a matter of creating the right physiological environment within your body. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, all gyno is temporary or semi-permanent at worse.

Here are the basic levels of gyno -

Level 1 – A dime sized glandular lump – which can emerge as soon as 2-3 weeks after “gyno symptoms” appear. This type of gyno can transform into a more serious level 2 gyno if left untreated for more than 4-6 weeks. In most cases, this initial level 1 gyno disappears once the hormonal environment improves, which is generally 2-3 weeks after the inflicting steroids clear the system.

Level 2 – A quarter sized glandular lump. This type of gyno does not completely disappear on its own, but may gradually shrink to “Level 1” size after discontinuing the inflicting steroids. Completely reversing level 2 gyno requires aggressive dietary and supplemental intervention in conjunction with prescription grade drugs.

Generally, the levels of gyno can be referred to in the following way –

level 1 = temporary

level 2 = semi-permanent

Be warned, if gyno is allowed to grow large enough, the cost of surgery may be more cost efficient than trying to battle the gyno through drug and lifestyle changes – which could otherwise take months or years of intervention.

Following the 16 points below will help you prevent and reverse level 1 & 2 gyno -


The 16 Points


Consider all the following points. Remember, there are many factors that can contribute to gyno and performing just a handful of the points below may be the key to avoiding gyno all together.

1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.

Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –

* Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)

* Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.

* Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.

* High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.


2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.

3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)

4. Trenbolone , TREN , Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.

5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar , Winstrol , Masteron , Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)

6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.

7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –

* Vitex at 460mg/day
* Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
* Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
* Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)


8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.

9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-shitload-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.

10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)

11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.

12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)

13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)

14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex , letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.

15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.

16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points, consider the fact that you have a poorly planned cycle and you need to revaluate the compounds you have chosen.

 

[lith56bigguy]

primordial article...


Most people think the only way to combat gyno is to use Nolvadex or Clomid. Considering the undesirable side-effects of these drugs, I generally don’t prefer these as the first line of defense. I have expressed my concerns about SERM’s in my article – Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side.

In this article I summarize alternative methods for combating the occurrence of gyno. The advice given in this article is the result of over 10 years experience in counseling individuals with AAS induced gyno.

If you have gyno as a result of an endocrine disorder, I advise consulting your doctor before making changes to your prescribed medical regimen.


You Do Not Have Gyno!


During mammary tissue growth (the onset of gyno), you may notice the following symptoms -

* Puffy or swollen nipples
* Overly sensitive nipples
* Itchiness around the nipples

Editorial note: I promise -- that is the last time I will ever say nipples.

Now, just because you may have these symptoms does not mean you HAVE GYNO. It simply means that you HAVE GYNO SYMPTOMS. Remember, it is normal to have a small flat pea sized lump under the nipple. This is NOT gyno.

Now, if you allow these above symptoms to progress for several weeks then you may develop gyno. So if you are experiencing any of the above symptoms then you are smart to take action before it’s too late – But please stop emailing me saying you “have gyno” after 3 days on a cycle – this is physiologically impossible.

The good news is that even if you do have a slight case of gyno that you developed from a cycle, it’s probably 100% reversible. Read on…

Nipples.


Gyno Hysteria


No level of gyno is “permanent”. Any level of gyno can be reversed by dietary, supplemental and/or hormonal intervention. Mammary tissue (gyno) can be catabolized like any other tissue in the body. It’s just a matter of creating the right physiological environment within your body. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, all gyno is temporary or semi-permanent at worse.

Here are the basic levels of gyno -

Level 1 – A dime sized glandular lump – which can emerge as soon as 2-3 weeks after “gyno symptoms” appear. This type of gyno can transform into a more serious level 2 gyno if left untreated for more than 4-6 weeks. In most cases, this initial level 1 gyno disappears once the hormonal environment improves, which is generally 2-3 weeks after the inflicting steroids clear the system.

Level 2 – A quarter sized glandular lump. This type of gyno does not completely disappear on its own, but may gradually shrink to “Level 1” size after discontinuing the inflicting steroids. Completely reversing level 2 gyno requires aggressive dietary and supplemental intervention in conjunction with prescription grade drugs.

Generally, the levels of gyno can be referred to in the following way –

level 1 = temporary

level 2 = semi-permanent

Be warned, if gyno is allowed to grow large enough, the cost of surgery may be more cost efficient than trying to battle the gyno through drug and lifestyle changes – which could otherwise take months or years of intervention.

Following the 16 points below will help you prevent and reverse level 1 & 2 gyno -


The 16 Points


Consider all the following points. Remember, there are many factors that can contribute to gyno and performing just a handful of the points below may be the key to avoiding gyno all together.

1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.

Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –

* Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)

* Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.

* Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.

* High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.


2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.

3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)

4. Trenbolone , TREN , Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.

5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar , Winstrol , Masteron , Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)

6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.

7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –

* Vitex at 460mg/day
* Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
* Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
* Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)


8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.

9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-shitload-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.

10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)

11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.

12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)

13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)

14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex , letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.

15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.

16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points, consider the fact that you have a poorly planned cycle and you need to revaluate the compounds you have chosen.

not a bad read