Dangers of Excess Estrogen In the Aging Male

[F.I.S.T.]

Dangers of Excess Estrogen In the Aging Male
By William Faloon


We at Life Extension are sometimes asked why we check estrogen levels when testing the blood of our male members.

Long ago, we published data showing that estrogen levels are often elevated in aging men and discussed the insidious health risks associated with excess estrogen. Since it is so easy for men to correct estrogen overload, it made sense to test for it and recommend the appropriate corrective actions if blood results reveal excessive (or deficient) estrogen.

A presentation at a recent anti-aging conference suggested that higher estrogen levels are beneficial to aging men. This prompted us to search the published scientific literature to see if we had overlooked some recent findings.

What we uncovered not only confirmed our original recommendation, but revealed that excess estrogen in aging men is more dangerous than what we even thought.
[size=14pt]
Double the Stroke Risk

Stroke is the third leading cause of death and the leading cause of age-related disability. Abnormal blood clotting in the cerebral blood vessels is the most common cause of stroke. Excess estrogen promotes abnormal blood clots.1

In a study published just last year, blood levels of estradiol (a potent estrogen) were measured in a group of 2,197 men aged 71 to 93 years of age. Adjustment for age, hypertension, diabetes, adiposity, cholesterol, atrial fibrillation, and other characteristics were made. During the course of follow-up, men with the highest blood levels of estradiol had a 2.2-fold greater risk of stroke compared with those whose estradiol levels were lower.2

This study revealed that estradiol blood levels greater than 34.1 pg/mL resulted in this more than doubling of stroke incidence. Life Extension long ago warned men to keep their estradiol levels below 30 pg/mL, and this recent stroke study clearly validates our prior recommendation.

Excess Estrogen in Middle-Aged Men

One way to evaluate the health of the arterial system is to measure the inner and medial wall of the carotid artery using an ultrasound test.


In a study published two years ago, blood levels of estradiol were measured in 313 men whose average age was 58. Carotid artery intima-media thickness was measured at baseline and then three years later. After adjusting for other risk factors, men with higher levels of estradiol suffered a worsening thickening of their carotid artery wall. This led the researchers to conclude, “circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.”3

This study of middle-aged men was initiated based on findings that treatment of men with prostate cancer using orally ingested estrogen drugs is associated with increased cardiovascular events and deaths.

Ultrasound measurement of the carotid artery wall provides an accurate prognostic indicator of arterial disease. The findings in this study show progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in men with higher estradiol levels. Greater carotid artery intima-media thickness sharply correlates with increased risks of heart attack and stroke.

Estradiol Higher in Male Heart Attack Victims


A study published just last year compared blood levels of testosterone and estradiol in men suffering acute myocardial infarction (heart attack) with those who had previously suffered a heart attack.

Sex hormones were measured in patients presenting with acute heart attack, patients with old heart attack, and patients with normal coronary arteries. The results showed significantly higher levels of estradiol in both groups of heart attack patients compared with those without coronary disease.4 As would be expected from numerous prior studies, heart attack victims also had decreased testosterone levels.

The reason many men suffer from excess estradiol and deficient testosterone is that their aging bodies produce less testosterone while more of their beneficial testosterone is converted (aromatized) into estradiol. The pathological result is an altering of the ratio of testosterone to estrogen, creating estrogen dominance.5 This imbalance of estrogen overload and testosterone insufficiency is an often overlooked cause of cardiovascular disease.

Fortunately, there are safe methods to block the aromatase enzyme in order to lower excess estrogen while boosting free testosterone levels.

High Estrogen in Men With Coronary Atherosclerosis

An invasive diagnostic procedure known as a coronary angiogram can measure the degree of atherosclerosis present in the arteries feeding the heart muscle.

Researchers used angiogram-confirmed cases of coronary atherosclerosis to ascertain the effects of sex hormones and other metabolic factors in a group of men aged 40-60 years.

Compared with healthy age-matched controls, men with coronary atherosclerosis had low testosterone, higher levels of estrone (another potent estrogen), and a low level of testosterone in the presence of a high level of estradiol.6 These findings led the researchers to conclude their study by stating, “low levels of total testosterone, testosterone/estradiol ratio and free androgen index and higher levels of estrone in men with coronary artery disease appear together with many features of metabolic syndrome and may be involved in the pathogenesis of coronary atherosclerosis.”

High Estrogen in Men With Coronary Atherosclerosis

In a study conducted a year later by another research group, angiograms were used to measure the extent of coronary atherosclerosis in a group of men with stable coronary artery disease. The finding showed significant positive correlations between estradiol levels and other known atherosclerotic risk factors.7 The scientists concluded their study by stating, “our results indicate a possible role of estradiol in promoting the development of atherogenic lipid milieu in men with coronary artery disease.”

These two recent studies validate other reports showing that excess estrogen promotes atherosclerosis in men.

Peripheral Artery Disease and Sex Hormones

Peripheral artery disease occurs when there is partial or total blockage of an artery, usually one leading to a leg or arm. Leg artery disease is usually due to atherosclerosis that impairs blood circulation. Those afflicted with this condition find that walking can bring on fatigue, cramping, and pain in the hip, buttock, thigh, knee, shin, or upper foot.

A study published last year sought to determine whether blood levels of testosterone and estradiol are associated with lower extremity peripheral arterial disease in elderly men.

The participants consisted of 3,014 men with peripheral artery disease who averaged 75.4 years of age. After factoring in age, current smoking, previous smoking, diabetes, hypertension, and body mass index, the findings showed that low levels of testosterone were independently and positively associated with peripheral artery disease as were high levels of estradiol.8

The doctors who conducted this study concluded, “this cross-sectional study shows for the first time that low serum testosterone and high serum estradiol levels associate with lower extremity peripheral artery disease in elderly men.”

The pharmaceutical industry makes a fortune treating those with peripheral artery disease. Common drugs prescribed include those that lower blood sugar, lower cholesterol (statins), lower blood pressure, and lower risk of blood clot. A popular drug called Plavix® has been heavily advertised to treat peripheral and other arterial diseases.

Based on what is known about the atherogenic and thrombotic risks of low testosterone and high estradiol, it is conceivable that men suffering from peripheral artery disease could discard many of their drugs if they restored their testosterone to youthful ranges and reduced excess estradiol.
High Estradiol Levels Seen in Male Chronic Inflammation Patients

Rheumatoid arthritis is a severe chronic inflammatory state that results in increased risks of heart attack, cancer, and stroke. A study of men with rheumatoid arthritis evaluated blood levels of sex hormones compared with healthy controls.9

Levels of estradiol in rheumatoid arthritis patients were higher and DHEA levels lower compared with subjects who were not suffering from chronic inflammation.9 This corresponds to studies showing that high estrogen levels (in women) can increase C-reactive protein, which is the most accurate marker for systemic inflammation.10-12 Elevated C-reactive protein is an independent risk factor for coronary heart disease in healthy individuals.


Another Lethal Mechanism of Excess Estrogen

The number one cause of death in persons over age 50 is the development of an abnormal blood clot (thrombus) in an artery that blocks blood flow to a critical region of the body such as the heart, lungs, or brain. Elevated estrogen predisposes people to these lethal thrombotic events.

It has been found that men admitted in hospitals with myocardial infarcts have elevated estradiol and lower testosterone levels.13 This was shown in an interesting study done on men admitted to the hospital with acute heart attacks whose levels of sex hormones were evaluated. Compared with control patients, estradiol levels in these heart attack patients were 180% higher, while bioavailable testosterone levels were nearly three times less than those of control patients.14

These findings reveal the higher heart attack incidences associated with high estrogen and low testosterone. It is possible, however, that these low levels of testosterone and high levels of estradiol occurred in response to the heart attack itself.

Estrogen and Prostate Cancer

The role that estrogen plays in malignant prostate disease is contradictory and complex. Some studies indicate that estrogen and its toxic metabolites are a cause of prostate cancer.15,16 Yet once prostate cancer develops, certain estrogen compounds demonstrate anticancer effects.

This paradox can be explained by the mechanisms that estradiol (and its toxic metabolites) uses to damage prostate cell DNA,17 causing gene mutations that result in the loss of cell growth regulatory control, i.e. cancer. Interestingly, once a prostate tumor manifests, estrogen may exert anti-tumor effects, though cancer cells eventually become resistant to estrogen drugs and then even use endogenous estrogen to fuel their growth.

The fact that estrogen may temporarily exert anti-tumor effects in certain types of prostate cancer cells does not diminish the argument that estrogen may have contributed to the initiation of the same cancer. For example, in a study published two years ago, researchers discovered that when “estradiol is added to testosterone treatment of rats, prostate cancer incidence is markedly increased and even a short course of estrogen treatment results in a high incidence of prostate cancer.” These scientists hypothesize that metabolites of estrogens can be converted to reactive intermediates that can adduct to DNA and cause generation of reactive oxygen species; thus, estradiol is a weak DNA-damaging carcinogen that causes DNA damage to prostate cell genes.18 This kind of damage to DNA regulatory genes is what initiates prostate cancer.

Many published studies, however, show no association between high blood estradiol levels and diagnosed prostate cancers.19 One reason there are not more diagnosed prostate cancers in men with high estrogen may be that the high estradiol level that initiated DNA damage then serves to keep prostate cancer temporarily under control once it develops.

An interesting mechanism by which certain prostate cancer cells become resistant to estradiol therapy is the development of components in cancer cells that selectively remove estradiol from the tumor cells. If our normal cells were only as adaptive as cancer cells, we could possibly become biologically immortal.

Another reason why estradiol blood levels may not correlate with prostate cancer incidence is the ability of prostate cells to produce their own estradiol (by making their own aromatase enzyme). Although evidence is conflicting, there is a clear indication that local synthesis of estrogen in the prostate gland itself may be significant in prostate tumor development.16 All of this helps validate the importance of nutrients Life Extension male members take to block the carcinogenic effects of estrogen within the prostate gland.

An analogy to how excess estrogen can first damage DNA regulatory genes to cause cancer and then act as a prostate cancer suppressor can be seen with chemotherapy drugs. The mechanism by which most chemo drugs kill cancer cells is to inflict massive damage to cellular DNA. While chemo drugs kill cancer cells, they simultaneously damage healthy DNA and can increase the risk of future cancers. It appears that excess estrogen damages prostate cell DNA to initiate cancer, but then acts as a temporary prostate cancer suppressor. In presenting this analogy, I am not implying that estrogen in men is as dangerous as toxic chemo drugs. I am showing that something that suppresses cancer cell propagation (like estrogen) can also cause cancer.[/size]

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Man vs. Estrogen: It’s Not Just A Woman Thing!
Posted by Dr. Nathan Goodyear

Testosterone is the defining hormone of a man. Estrogen is the defining hormone of a woman.

So when we talk about estrogen, it’s that word men whisper in secret when the women in their lives seem a little hormonal, right? When people find out that my wife and I have 3 daughters, the resulting comment is usually, “Wow, that’s a lot of estrogen in your household!” (Thankfully, I have a son, too, who helps balance the estrogen to testosterone ratio at our house!)

I’m sorry to burst your bubble, guys, but estrogen is not exclusive to women. We make estrogen, too. In fact, some of us make a LOT of estrogen. Too much, in fact. And it creates some serious problems.

But before we talk about estrogen, we need to talk about testosterone. Testosterone levels in American men are at an all-time low! There are four major reasons for that: stress, weight, endogenous estrogens, and xenoestrogens. In this post, I’ll address three of those – stress, weight, and endogenous estrogen.

So let’s get started learning four important facts about testosterone, estrogen, and men!

What problems do high estrogen levels create in men?

1. High estrogen = low testosterone. One of the primary causes of low testosterone is a high estrogen level. Estrogens can be endogenous (produced by your body) or exogenous (from the environment, also known as xenoestrogens). Estradiol and Estrone (two of the three kinds of estrogen produced by your body) feed back to the hypothalamus and pituitary and shut off testosterone production.

2. High estrogen = inflammation. Not only do high estrogen levels decrease testosterone in men, they also increase inflammation. And this is VERY significant. Inflammation, just like stress, is a biochemical process.

inflammation & HormonesInflammation is the natural result of the immune system. Remember the last time you got a paper cut? It was incredibly painful, probably red, warm and swollen, all cardinal symptoms of inflammation. Inflammation, in the right setting, is actually the body protecting itself. However, when the immune system becomes imbalanced or chronically activated, the immune system causes damage through inflammation. For example, chronically activated immune cells in the brain (glial cells) play a pivotal role in the development of Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and Multiple Sclerosis.

Inflammation is a SERIOUS issue. Chronic inflammation has been linked to many of the chronic diseases of aging: Type II Diabetes, obesity, hypertension, and cancer. In fact, a new term has been coined to describe inflammation arising from the gut which results in many of the above listed disease states - metabolic endotoxemia.

We’ve established that high estrogen levels are bad for men, shutting down testosterone production and causing chronic inflammation leading to disease.

What causes high estrogen levels in men?

1. High aromatase activity = high estrogen. First, high endogenous estrogen levels in men come from high aromatase activity. Aromatase is the enzyme that converts androstenedione and testosterone into estrone and estradiol respectively. Aromatase is present in many different tissues. But in men aromatase is highly concentrated in that mid-life bulge.

Unfortunately, aromatase activity in men increases as we age due to stress, weight gain, and inflammation. None of us are going to get away from aging (it’s right there with death and taxes). And who do you know that has NO stress? (Remember, it is estimated that 90% of doctor visits are stress-related.) Typically, as we age we gain weight and have more inflammation.

That “age-related” tire around the mid-section is more than just unsightly. It is a hormone and inflammation-producing organ. Remember metabolic endotoxemia, the disease-producing state I mentioned earlier? Metabolic endotoxemia is inflammation arising from the GI system which causes obesity and then turns right around and produces inflammation. It’s a vicious cycle! And guess what is concentrated in fat? If you guessed aromatase activity, then you are absolutely correct. Aromatase activity in men accounts for 80% of estrogen production.

Hormones are not just about numbers, but balance and metabolism as well (read my recent post on the topic).

2. Overdosage of testosterone = high estrogen. As mentioned earlier, testosterone levels in men are at an all-time low. And the mass solution for this problem with most physicians is to increase testosterone without evaluating or treating the underlying causes for low testosterone. Unfortunately, this complicates the entire low testosterone problem. Overdosage of testosterone increases estrogen production.

What? You mean you can dose too high on testosterone? Yes, and most of the patients I see who are being treated with testosterone have been, in fact, overdosed.

In fact, at Seasons Wellness Clinic and Seasons of Farragut, we have seen many men must donate blood due to excess production of hemoglobin and hematocrit, a by-product of testosterone overdosage. A 20-22 year old male normally produces 5-10 mg daily of testosterone. It is during this age range that men are at their physical peak of testosterone production. For me, this was during my college football years.

Does it make sense for 40-and-up men currently taking testosterone, that they did not need to donate blood monthly during their peak years of natural testosterone production, but are currently required to donate blood regularly with their current regimen of testosterone? Of course not. So, if you didn’t have to donate blood with your peak testosterone production in your 20′s, you shouldn’t have to donate with testosterone therapy in your 40′s and beyond either. Something is wrong here, right?

The starting dosage for one of the most highly-prescribed androgen gels is 1 gram daily. Men, we didn’t need 1 gram of testosterone in our early 20′s, and we don’t need it in our 30′s and beyond.

80% of a man’s Estrogen production occurs from aromatase activity, and aromatase activity increases as we age. So high doses of testosterone don’t make sense. Doctors are just throwing fuel on the fire with these massive doses. More is not better if it’s too much, even when it is something your body needs.

Then, there is the delivery of testosterone therapy. The body’s natural testosterone secretion follows a normal diurnal rhythm. Testosterone is known to be greatest in early morning and lowest in the evening. But with many prescribing testosterone therapy today, it is very common to get weekly testosterone shots or testosterone pellets. This method of delivery does NOT follow the body’s natural rhythm. The shots and pellets delivery method of testosterone produce supra physiologic (abnormal) peaks. If the purpose of hormone therapy is to return the body to normal levels, then that objective can never be reached with this type of testosterone therapy.

The effects of Testosterone to estrogen conversion in men and women are different. That’s certainly no surprise. In men, high aromatase activity and conversion of testosterone to estrogen has been linked to elevated CRP, fibrinogen, and IL-6.

Are these important? CRP is one of the best indicators of future cardiovascular disease/events (heart attacks and strokes), and is associated with metabolic syndrome. And yes, it is more predictive than even a high cholesterol level. Fibrinogen is another marker of inflammation that has been associated with cardiovascular disease and systemic inflammation. IL-6 is an inflammatory cytokine (immune signal) that has been implicated in increased aromatase activity (conversion of testosterone to estrogen) and at the same time is the result of increased testosterone to estrogen activity.

So, what’s the big deal? The studies are not 100% conclusive, but it is clear that inflammation increases the testosterone to estrogen conversion through increased aromatase activity. And the increased estrogen conversion is associated with increased inflammation in men. It’s a vicious cycle that will lead to disease states such as insulin resistance, hypertension, prostatitis, cardiovascular disease, autoimmune disease, and cancer, to name a few.

You may be thinking, “Is the testosterone I need leading me to disease?”

The answer is, “Yes, it sure can.” If your testosterone therapy includes prescription of supra physiologic levels of testosterone, lack of follow-up on hormone levels, and no effort to balance hormones and metabolism, then yes, it sure can.

The next step is testing. In the case of hormone imbalance, we evaluate hormones with state-of-the-art hormone testing via saliva, not just blood. As stated in a 2006 article, “plasma levels of estradiol do not necessarily reflect tissue-level activity.” Saliva has been shown to reveal the active hormone inside the cell at the site of action.

After initial testing and a therapy program, hormone levels are re-evaluated to ensure the progression of treatment and necessary changes are made to the treatment program. Testing and follow-up are key to proper balance of hormones

The way estrogens are metabolized plays an equally pivotol role in hormone risk and effect. At Seasons of Farragut, our system of testing, evaluating, and monitoring is the only way to ensure that testosterone therapy for men is raising the testosterone and DHT levels instead of all being converted to estrogen.

Hormone therapy is safe, but for it to work effectively, it must be properly evaluated, dosed, followed, and re-evaluated.

 

[TSizemore]

Always knew that Estrogen was bad JuJu! Learned it in 5th grade...😉

 

[Hanzo]

This is why everyone should take DIM year round.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Always knew that Estrogen was bad JuJu! Learned it in 5th grade...😉

TSizemore
Many know but may not know exactly why or what all it can do to a man.Most men only tend to worry about their Test levels and never even think about Estrogen and especially true and to the point for us whom cycle,how the elevated levels of Test can increase estrogen levels dramatically.More so as we age.Ratio of Test/Estrogen changes greatly as we get older and by taking test exogenously,those ratios radically change.

Just a little more insight for those that need it or to those that may just need a refresher.

 

[Hogslayer]

Mr FIST. You always post things that I want to read but my time is limited. However some times I get lucky and have a few hours to go back and read the ones I remember you posting. When you post interesting ones like this one is there anyway you could email them to me so I won't forget to read them???

 

[Daredevil]

Just subscribed to them Hogslayer or maybe that's just a tapatalk feature.

FIST your a man full of knowledge. Sometimes I worry about my estrogen level, which gets checked twice a year by my doctor off cycle. I do worry about it on cycle and take arimadex at 0.50mG every other day. Haven't experienced any sides from cycles but sometimes I do feel emotional about shit that shouldn't bother me. But I think that's just my personality and mentality. But could be my estrogen level.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Mr FIST. You always post things that I want to read but my time is limited. However some times I get lucky and have a few hours to go back and read the ones I remember you posting. When you post interesting ones like this one is there anyway you could email them to me so I won't forget to read them???

Hogslayer

Sure thing my friend.Just shoot me your email and it will be my pleasure.Im honored to hear it and to do it for you.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Just subscribed to them Hogslayer or maybe that's just a tapatalk feature.

FIST your a man full of knowledge. Sometimes I worry about my estrogen level, which gets checked twice a year by my doctor off cycle. I do worry about it on cycle and take arimadex at 0.50mG every other day. Haven't experienced any sides from cycles but sometimes I do feel emotional about shit that shouldn't bother me. But I think that's just my personality and mentality. But could be my estrogen level.

Daredevil

Thank you sir.Im just love educating myself from the true educated people on things.I learn form their knowledge which I then put into practical use for myself to see how it works,or doesnt,for me.

I too worry about my estrogen levels.Its funny because when I was younger,I ran some pretty wild cycles.Being the 'YOUNG,DUMB AND FULL OF CUM" typical guy,I was ready to take on the world and knew that I could handle anything,I would run these crazy high doses on cycle and not really have too harsh sides.Thats until I woke up and got my head out of my ass.LMAO.But the point is,as I got older,I started reacting differently to cycles that were a 3rd of what I took when I was younger and it got me worried so I started doing more research and taking more precautions with my cycles.Even with dieting,I always try to eat the best I possibly can and worry about anything thats not going to help me in the long run.

As you get older,your test converts to estrogen more readily and easily so for all of us men,we need to take extra precaution but those cycling that much more.I also run adex at .5mg eod now with my cycles.I never used to before but now have been adding.

Remember,getting bloods is so important and monitoring such things is equally as important.I have always told my dr that im cycling (which he will know from my bloods anyway,so why lie?) and this way,he can also know why certain levels are where they are at at a given time and what compound I may be running.So this way,he knows if they are normal for what im running,or at least we can research it together (which has been the case many time due his lack of knowledge with AAS users) and we can both work out a change if needed.

 

[Hogslayer]

Sent... Looking forward to sleepy Sundays reading a ton of articles. Thanks a million BROTHER!!

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Sent... Looking forward to sleepy Sundays reading a ton of articles. Thanks a million BROTHER!!

Hogslayer

You're very welcome.The honor is all mine.

 

[Hanzo]

But could be my estrogen level.

Daredevil
.... could be the ai you're using. You guys are correct in keeping estro levels down, but there are better ways than only using ai's. SERM's might be better to use in many cases, and they aren't suicide inhibitors so they do allow a useful amount of estrogen your body does need. That's also why I mentioned DIM above. I can't believe everyone on this board doesn't know what it is and/or isn't using it. Every day. AI's are the hardest of all on your body because they block virtually all estrogen (Aromasin is highest, 85%). Like I mentioned, Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor and blocks/binds estrogen at more than one location/mechanism.

Keeping estrogen levels in a safe, useful level is what we all strive for, not to squash it on a whim.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

.... could be the ai you're using. You guys are correct in keeping estro levels down, but there are better ways than only using ai's. SERM's might be better to use in many cases, and they aren't suicide inhibitors so they do allow a useful amount of estrogen your body does need. That's also why I mentioned DIM above. I can't believe everyone on this board doesn't know what it is and/or isn't using it. Every day. AI's are the hardest of all on your body because they block virtually all estrogen (Aromasin is highest, 85%). Like I mentioned, Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor and blocks/binds estrogen at more than one location/mechanism.

Keeping estrogen levels in a safe, useful level is what we all strive for, not to squash it on a whim.

Hanzo

It has nothing to do with "not knowing what it is" as to the reason why we're all not using it.Ive personally done fine with the adex.Dont have a need for anything else.As ive stated before,in the past I never even needed the adex but now fond that I do.The best resources for me which determine my opinion on this is of course,my bloods but secondly and actually most important to me is my mental and physical state. know when something is wrong long before my bloods tell me it so I act on those reactions.The bloods only confirm it.

Now with that said,there are some that need way more than I do to control their sides so they have to find out what works best to treat their symptoms and may benefit best from more than only adex.

There is no magic formula that works for everyone so each individual has to find out what works best for THEM and what doesn't.Not disputing your reco's in any way.Just stating that it may not be the same as someone elses opinion based on their firsthand experiences.

 

[Hanzo]

Really? You use DIM then. These aren't opinions I stated above, they are clinical facts. Most of my research comes from Llewellyn, Roberts, etc. and pubmed. Sure everyone must be in tune with their body but how do you think anyone ever knew where to start? By just using and gaging how their "body feels". Of course not. Research into how ai's and SERM's affect male subjects is only beginning, all previous research has been done on female subjects, as they need these compounds to fight breast cancer, etc.

 

[Hanzo]

Dr.Scally, the only MD who has actually tested male subjects in regards to ai and SERM usage (specifically for on cycle and PCT use) has determined that ai use is often unwarranted and too strong for males. Continued use of ai's shows adverse effects on serum cholesterol markers that were previously thought, in theory, to be the opposite. While ai's are easier on lipid levels in the very short run, the fact that they are so efficient in removing/stopping estrogen assimilation/production denies men the intended benefits of estrogen in the male body.... on joint health, liver health, etc. So, Dr.Scally posits that use of Nolvadex while on cycle precludes the use of ai's except in circumstances where the individual may be prone to gynocemastia or under high dosages (pro doses).

Dr.Scally is a mentor to William Llewellyn and is the person responsible for virtually all modern PCT regimens. He is saying that we (as gear users) oftentimes, unnecessarily, arbitrarily, and contradictory to our own health, are too methodical and precise in squashing our own estrogen levels down to an unhealthy level.

Should we stop using ai's? No, not if you have a valid, rational need. Should we start to rethink our now aging/outmoded ideas of which drugs to use at which time and which doses (not to mention all preceding studies have been done on women, as noted above)? Yes. Never get complacent in your research, as new and exciting ideas/studies, etc. are coming out all the time.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

Really? You use DIM then. These aren't opinions I stated above, they are clinical facts. Most of my research comes from Llewellyn, Roberts, etc. and pubmed. Sure everyone must be in tune with their body but how do you think anyone ever knew where to start? By just using and gaging how their "body feels". Of course not. Research into how ai's and SERM's affect male subjects is only beginning, all previous research has been done on female subjects, as they need these compounds to fight breast cancer, etc.

Hanzo
Once again,im not disputing anything you said,nor did I say your opinions are wrong or not based on facts.Also,you're picking and choosing what I said in terms of how to tell if you're in need of something or not.I did say that I go by how I feel of course but I also stated that I regularly get bloods and they only confirm what I already know by my mental and physical state.After 3 decades of cycling,I know what each compound does to me and how I react to those that ive utilized.But I would never say I go by those feelings without having the blood work to prove them.Also,by having the bloods done,I can better gauge what I need to do before things get out of hand.

Lastly,you misinterpreted what I stated in regards to only using Adex.Once again,I do perfectly fine with that alone so no matter what any research study shows on any other compound and what their benefits are,they're all irrelevant to my situation thus far.I don't need anything else so why would I look for it? If things change where the adex alone is not taking care of the slight symptoms I do get from cycling,I of course will seek alternative meds.But until then,I stick what proven to work for me,as everyone should do.

Like I stated,im happy to hear from you and appreciate your input into it.Never said its wrong nor did I disagree.

 

[Hanzo]

I'm not picking or choosing anything, I ask questions to clarify your position and answer your questions. Some people like to be on the cutting edge, learning the new paradigms as they come along, others don't. You'll never know if you're doing the best for yourself if you never try to seek out better alternatives.Begining.Middle.End of story.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

I'm not picking or choosing anything, I ask questions to clarify your position and answer your questions. Some people like to be on the cutting edge, learning the new paradigms as they come along, others don't. You'll never know if you're doing the best for yourself if you never try to seek out better alternatives.Begining.Middle.End of story.

Hanzo

But what you're saying now doesnt make any sense.There is no NEED to seek alternative meds when there is on problem with the ones in taking.Thats like saying take aspirin for a headache and it gets rid of it 100% but I think i'll still look at taking something else.Why would I?

The questions you say you ask to clarify my position are for a resolution to a problem that doesnt exist.Once again,for those that have continuing issues with only using using adex,THEN they would seek other means to their problem.You don't seek out a solution to a problem that is resolved already.Doesn't make sense in any way shape or form.

Your opinions may are great for those in need,but not at all for those who do not.You say you may not know what works best if you never seek out better solutions? You cant be fixed more than 100%.If you solve a problem with a certain med,adex in this case,and this is confirmed by not only the mental and physical state that drove you to seek out a cure for the problem in the first place,AND the bloods confirming that your issue is resolved,there is absolutely no reason to say"Hmmm,I wonder if something could fix me up better"? Understand?

Sorry,but your thoughts are just not relevant to my situation,nor others that have found Adex ALONE a cure.

Now thats actually the end of the story my friend.

 

[Hanzo]

No one said not to use adex or that it's not a "cure" (that's a stretch of English).

I'm relating the latest research performed by qualified clinical researchers. Derp.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[F.I.S.T.]

No one said not to use adex or that it's not a "cure" (that's a stretch of English).

I'm relating the latest research performed by qualified clinical researchers. Derp.

Ignorance is bliss.

Hanzo

LMFAO.I'll leave it at this..................."THATS ACTUALLY THE END OF THE STORY"

Respect to you man.Hahahaha