Flag burning trump

blasson date=1480648427 said:
And don't take any of this personal.. no hate is being sent to you from me what so ever. Just trying to bring light to the reasons why people are against the flag burning and those examples were the only way in my head to say them.


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blasson date=1480648427discussion should never be personal. we are talking about ideas and ideas are and always should be subject to discussion, change and redicule and support. no idea is sacred or beyond criticism.

as for examples listed i agree with all. i dont need to have somebody from my family die to understand the importance of a flag.
i cant say it otherwise but that freedom must always include freespeech and right to protest. hearing and seeing things we absolutely hate and doing everything we can to protect these things we would so gladly just destroy and erase and never let happen, this is the key in freedom. getting outside of our own beliefs and supporting dissenting beliefs and always fighting for their rights.
usa flag, like all other flags, is a symbol of freedom and punishing those who burn it would go against the very core of that very flag. freedom is protecting things we hate. and in free speech we hear endless things we dont like. i hear 1000things per day i absolutely loathe. i would still fight with everything i have for their right to exist and expressed. this is the reason all civilised countries have it as a law that burning the flag is a right and must be respected and tolerated. regardless of how much we dont like it.
 
Burn ANY flag and you should go to jail point blank.
How anyone would do this annoys shit out of me. This might be a topic I should stay out of.

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anabol69 date=1480697308 said:
Burn ANY flag and you should go to jail point blank.
How anyone would do this annoys shit out of me. This might be a topic I should stay out of.

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anabol69 date=1480697308your annoyance is no reason to put anybody in jail. this is freedom. also when you annoy somebody you cant be jailed for their preference. this is freedom.
there is a reason why burning the flag is a right everywhere. perhaps try to understand why?

its funny to see how arguments are articulated on both sides. pro jailing sideusually writes 4 words and no further explanation: put him in jail

and the anti jailing side writes whole essays lol.
 
lith56bigguy date=1480734043 said:
I don't see burning out nations flag as acceptable by any means.....
lith56bigguy date=1480734043ofcourse it should be legal and it is. nothing special or sacred about a piece of cloth. we are all free to not burn or to burn a flag, as it should be.
 
drakonrep date=1480630701 said:
regardless, jailing of media or limiting protection of media is a no go zone. oppression of media is a dictatorship. not a good way for usa to go. so i hope trumps advisers told him to keep quiet about such things and simply obey the constitution and free society human rights.
drakonrep date=1480630701You keep saying this, but not backing it up. Explain to me how a person can be charged with a crime for intentionally making false statements about his neighbor that cause this neighbor harm in any way, yet you feel feel the media should receive a pass. I'm not talking about printing true or factual information that gets someone in hot water. I'm talking about intentionally printing fabricated stories and outright lies. This should be a crime no matter who or what you are. The media included. In no way does this signify a dictatorship. Explain to me how this is not good for the USA. Explain how this has anything to do with human rights. I'm just not seeing how supporting criminal behavior and giving a pass to a group does anything but destroy our country.
 
T-bar date=1480764752 said:
You keep saying this, but not backing it up. Explain to me how a person can be charged with a crime for intentionally making false statements about his neighbor that cause this neighbor harm in any way, yet you feel feel the media should receive a pass. I'm not talking about printing true or factual information that gets someone in hot water. I'm talking about intentionally printing fabricated stories and outright lies. This should be a crime no matter who or what you are. The media included. In no way does this signify a dictatorship. Explain to me how this is not good for the USA. Explain how this has anything to do with human rights. I'm just not seeing how supporting criminal behavior and giving a pass to a group does anything but destroy our country.
T-bar date=1480764752neighbour can be charged for false claims, media cannot. is there a difference, yes there is, a huge one. media have a specific role and this role is key.

LOl at even comparing neighbour issues with rights of the media. just lol. this says everything about your lack of knowledge and insight into this

we have had 2 world wars, hundreds of millions of deaths, all for freedom. nobody is going to be jailed for printing faulty or deliberately wrong stories, its like this in the usa and ALL civilised enlightened countries. so the standard is set and set clearly: protection of media is paramount. without this there is no freedom.
if anybody wants it different they should be the ones making logical and persuasive statements. so far i havent seen any. all preference because people dislike what they hear.
nobody can be jailed for printing lies, simply not possible or ever will be. media freedom has to be supported at all cost and luckily we all live in countries where this is the case and with pride can say these are the countries that are best in the world.

in short, by protecting media at all costs we tolerate their bullshit but what we as society get is their ability to uncover and criticise elites and governments, this is a key role for the media all around the world. mistakes/bullshit and lies of media MUST be tolerated in order to always have a joker card on the leadership. this is the reason media are always censored first in dictatorships and will never be censored in free countries. never or in any way
 
tkasch30 date=1480767310 said:
Don't waste your time T-bar....Lmao
tkasch30 date=1480767310learning something is never a waste of time. dont just dismiss dissenting views. USA and european law is clear. media cannot be punished and flag burning is legal. i suggest to all who disagree to learn more about history of the world and see the reasons why. you are all looking at this from a short term perspective, i.e. Trump. you support trump and dislike when info on him is uncovered or published wrongly or flatout lies. so you revolt to the whole principle. this is short term self invested thinking vs principles of societies.

this isnt about trump or any 1 person or party. nobody cares about these things when making such laws, these people are ants. this is about the highest possible human ethics and morals and freedom of media is at center of this.

as for burning of the flag, some see it as a symbol of good and everything they desire. some see it as a symbol of oppression and hate and horiible politicians and everything they dislike etc. flag represents whatever you want it to represent. in reality its a piece of cloth, nothing special about it. all atributes to it are given by people and thus subjective.

1 group should not force the other. 1 group cannot force the group to burn the flag and 1 group cannot punish the group burning the flag. plenty of reasons in my view to not burn and to burn the flag. hundreds of real factual arguments on both sides. and this is good and this is freedom.

freedom is doing what you want while not violating somebody elses rights. and burning the flag is just that. this is the reason it will always be allowed

also VERY interesting and telling that 1 group (anti flag burning) is telling the other: if you dont like it leave. the pro burning group isnt telling this to the other group. meaning 1 group is simply closed minded and cannot fathom that anybody but them might be right and the ego in this group is huge: if you dont like it leave. lol. why dont YOU leave and go somewhere else? think about this

ending your argument with 'if you dont think like me then just leave the country' is LOL. how very intellectual and knowing of history lol
 
On the issue of jailing or punishing (lol) false or untrue information from the media here is a good explanation (article i found in 5secs searching). ALL the wars in history and countless sufferings have led to the protection of media, as it should be. if after reading this one doesnt understand why media is protected then nothing more can be done and you just have to accept it. but i suggest reading this so you can understand WHY things are done as they are done.


'Reporting the truth is an important goal for professional journalists whose reputation depends on it.

A number of countries around the world prohibit the dissemination of false information, even if it is not defamatory in nature.
Sometimes, the ban is formulated as a specific duty for journalists to report truthfully or to avoid one-sided, distorted or alarmist stories. Such ‘false news’ provisions are found in the laws of repressive countries but are rare in the more established democracies and have been ruled unconstitutional in some.

No international court has yet considered the legitimacy of false news provisions under international law. However, statements by some UN bodies concerned with human rights make it clear that false news provisions are inconsistent with the guarantee of freedom of expression, particularly if they are enforced through the criminal law. Commenting on the domestic legal system of Cameroon, the UNHRCm stated that “the prosecution and punishment of journalists for the crime of publication of false news merely on the ground, without more, that the news was false, [is a] clear violation of Article 19 of the Covenant.”

On other occasions, the UNHRCm has reiterated that false news provisions “unduly limit the exercise of freedom of opinion and expression.” It has taken this position even with respect to laws which only prohibit the dissemination of false news which causes a threat of public unrest. In 2000, the UN Special Rapporteur made a statement on the unacceptability of imprisonment under false news provisions, saying:

In the case of offences such as ... publishing or broadcasting “false” or “alarmist” information, prison terms are both reprehensible and out of proportion to the harm suffered by the victim. In all such cases, imprisonment as punishment for the peaceful expression of an opinion constitutes a serious violation of human rights.

What is the objection to false news provisions? Reporting in a truthful and balanced way is, of course, an important professional goal for journalists, especially those that work for public service broadcasters and are expected to serve the interests of society as a whole. But writing this goal into law presents several unacceptable dangers.

First, false news laws can have a serious chilling effect on the work of reporters. In situations of rapidly developing news, or where different sources contradict each other, facts may be difficult to check. Given that reporters’ reputations depend on the quality of the information they provide, they naturally have a strong incentive only to share news which they are fairly confident is correct, and to warn their audience if a certain fact cannot be verified.
If, however, journalists have the sword of a false news law hanging over their head, they might simply decide not to report news that they are not completely certain of at all, for fear of ending up in jail. As a result, citizens will be deprived of potentially vital information on current developments.

Second, facts and opinions are not always easily separated. In many cases, opinions are expressed through superficially false statements, such as sarcastic, satirical, hyperbolic or comical remarks.

A ban on false news can therefore easily become a ban on opinions not favoured by the authorities, endangering the free confrontation between different points of view which lies at the heart of democracy. This concern was highlighted by Canada’s Supreme Court in a case in which it struck down a false news provision as contrary to the constitutional guarantee of freedom of expression. The Court stated: “The reality is that when the matter is one on which the majority of the public has settled views, opinions may, for all practical purposes, be treated as an expression of a ‘false fact.’”

Third, false news provisions fail to recognise that it is often far from clear what the ‘truth’ on a particular matter is. As such, false news provisions are almost by definition impermissibly vague and, therefore, violate the first part of the three-part test for restrictions on freedom of expression. Moreover, even if a particular truth is well established, it may not always remain that way. As G.B. Shaw wrote: “New opinions often appear first as jokes and fancies, then as blasphemies and treason, then as questions open to discussion, and finally as established truths.” This historic observation should give governments cause to reflect before penalising certain information or ideas as ‘false’.

Lastly, the practice of states which still have false news provisions on the books shows the great potential for their abuse. A cogent example is the case of Lim Guan Eng, deputy leader of the opposition DAP party in Malaysia. In 1995, Lim raised concerns about the statutory rape of a 15-year old girl allegedly committed by the Chief Minister of the State of Malacca. The girl had been sentenced to 3 years ‘protective custody’ in a home for wayward girls, while the Chief Minister himself was not prosecuted. Lim questioned why the girl had been ‘imprisoned’. The Malaysian courts found that this inaccurate description of the legal nature of the girl’s detention, which was protective custody rather than imprisonment, constituted false news, and Lim was sentenced to 18 months in jail.

Mindful of the risks of false news provisions, several domestic courts have ruled such provisions to be unconstitutional, including in Antigua and Barbuda, Canada, Uganda and Zimbabwe.'


so after reading and understanding of this i hope people wont yell 'fuck station X, they should be banned and punished for reporting this or that' and understand that they are with such words punishing themselves and their children and the very word they are trying to protect: freedom
 
freedom of expresson and freedom of the press should be protected at all costs. without those, there is no democracy, no free society....and those wars we fought were for nothing.
 
tkasch30 date=1480767310 said:
Don't waste your time T-bar....Lmao
tkasch30 date=1480767310No shit. That was the most bass ackward logic I've ever heard. Repeating the same opinion without anything to back it up except for hrowing in a bunch of lol's is not really an impressive argument.
 
bossman date=1480773291 said:
freedom of expresson and freedom of the press should be protected at all costs. without those, there is no democracy, no free society....and those wars we fought were for nothing.
bossman date=1480773291I agree, up to the point where that freedom is abused. It's no different than any other area of importance. Abuse should not be tolerated in the press any more than it should be in the military, the legislature or anywhere else. Intentionally printing false information is not what freedom of the press is meant for. It's called defamation and it is not and should not be something the press is protected from. The same is true for obscenity and reporting items of national security.
As usual we have laws in place, but they are not being enforced. This of course leads people to believe that the press has total freedom under the First Amendment, which simply isn't true. If you actually read the 1st amendment it says that Congress shall not pass any law restricting the media. Only Congress. It says nothing about our courts, which is why the Supreme Court has successfully placed restrictions preventing this freedom from being abused.
 
there is no "up to the point". if you start doing that, then where do you draw the line in the sand? we will keep losing more and more freedoms. it's bad enough that we've lost a bunch already...the NSA stuff, spying on American citizens, etc. if there is no free press then the government controls the press, like in North Korea. do you think the US should be more like North Korea?

can you cite some examples of the press intentionally printing false information? i'm curious as to what you're referring to. and also, what are the restriction that the Supreme Court has put in place? i'm sorry, i'm no legal scholar. 🙂
 
T-bar date=1480852041 said:
No shit. That was the most bass ackward logic I've ever heard. Repeating the same opinion without anything to back it up except for hrowing in a bunch of lol's is not really an impressive argument.
T-bar date=1480852041have you even read what i posted? now its your turn to argument against it. i have written whole essays here on this point and all the pro censorship side has to say is 'well i dont like when they lie about my guy so they should be punished and also gtfo of my country'. not really the most intellectual eloquent arguments. worlds rules are on the side of media protection. argue against it, i am looking forward to it

in short free speech should an must not EVER be punished or censored or limited. never. free speech MUST include the right to offend, this is paramount. offending is key in free speech. very few things are more important in life then to offend and redicule, especially those who are in power or want to be, from religion to politicians to the money elite.
 
T-bar said:
No shit. That was the most bass ackward logic I've ever heard. Repeating the same opinion without anything to back it up except for hrowing in a bunch of lol's is not really an impressive argument.
T-barLOL...
Anyone who burns the USA flag shouldn't even be living here. Go to Europe where you'll fit right in.

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anabol69 date=1480871947 said:
LOL...
Anyone who burns the USA flag shouldn't even be living here. Go to Europe where you'll fit right in.

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anabol69 date=1480871947maybe YOU shouldnt be living here, with such dictatorial thoughts and who doesnt understand the basic principles of freedom. hows that for a thought?
you are openly saying that you disagree with all civilised countries and agree with african-like dictatorial countries who want to punish flag burning and to exile all who think differently. usa is a country of FREEDOM AND TOLERANCE and i see no reason why USA should tolerate those who are not tolerant to dissenting opinions.
Plenty of 3rd world dictator countries in the middle east (afghanistan this time of year is fantastic i hear) where you fit'll right in
 

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