War times?

[zombieslayer]

Its really fucking funny because if i follow the logic here (i use that term loosely) your "god" would still have to come from another god who came from another god.... Its FUCKING HILARIOUS. You argue its impossible for something to come from nothing yet your magic man is the exception to the rule. Instead of the realistic possibility of shit floating around in space coming together to form something your answer IS A MYTHOLOGICAL CREATURE WAVING A WAND!!! but..... Where did he come from if NOTHING CAN COME FROM NOTHING. Lol.. Just insaine.

LittleTom
You seem to be overlooking the obvious contradiction in your answer.

Think of 'NO THING'.
Describe it.

Give us a description of 'NOTHING', please.
Most people describe it something like 'completely dark space'.
But even completely dark space is 'something'.
It can be filled with whatever, so even empty space still IS NOT 'nothing'.

I think it was Jonathan Edwards who once said "'Nothing' is what sleepy rocks dream of."

Now, in your answer you said, "shit floating around in space coming together to form something."

What you seem to be overlooking is that fact that in your explaination "shit" is creating "something".

But once you remove the "shit", and are left with 'NO SHIT', how can 'NO SHIT' create 'ALL SHIT' and EVERYONE IN IT.

You see, the good ole Law of Cause and Effect is the problem.

The Law of Cause and Effect says that every effect must have a cause greater than itself, and that no effect is greater than the cause.

So, are we to believe that 'NO SHIT' MAGICALLY became 'SOME SHIT', and that 'SOME SHIT' MAGICALLY became more and more and more complex 'SHIT' until finally our big brains are sitting around arguing about that 'SHIT'?

'GOD creating' DOES NOT VIOLATE THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT!!!

Here's why:

Remember, every effect must have cause greater that itself.

Here's a brief example:
Let’s look at the law of cause and effect. Natural Law has no exceptions. This is definitely true of the law of cause and effect, which is the most universal and most certain of all laws. Simply put, the law of cause and effect states that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect.

Material effects without adequate causes do not exist. Also, causes never occur after the effect. In addition, the effect never is greater than the cause. That is why scientists say that every material effect must have an adequate cause. The river did not turn muddy because the frog jumped in; the book did not fall off the table because the fly landed on it. These are not adequate causes. For whatever effects we see, we must present adequate causes.

Five-year-olds are wonderful at using the law of cause and effect. We can picture a small child asking: “Mommy, where do peaches come from?” His mother says that they come from peach trees. Then the child asks where the trees come from, and his mother explains that they come from peaches. You can see the cycle. Eventually the child wants to know how the first peach tree got here. He can see very well that it must have had a cause, and he wants to know what that cause was.

One thing is for sure: the Universe did not create itself! We know this for a scientific fact, because matter cannot create matter. If we take a rock that weighs 1 pound and do 50,000 experiments on it, we never will be able to produce more than 1 pound of rock. So, whatever caused the Universe could not have been material.


GOD is the Great UnCaused Cause!!!

He is the Cause greater than ALL effects.
He is UnCaused because he IS the Cause of ALL effects.
He is all powerful.
He is outside of time and space.
He is eternal. (infinity + 1 is still infinity)

It's not hard to believe that an all powerful, all knowing God, who is eternal and outside of time and space created 'EVERYTHING'.

It takes MUCH MORE FAITH TO BELIEVE 'NO THING' CREATED 'EVERYTHING'.
Why, because 'NO THING' DOES NOT EVEN EXIST, so how can it create 'EVERYTHING' THAT DOES EXIST?

Give us just 1 example of this happening in the natural world that we can test.
You and Tuna want to CLAIM science backs up what you are saying.

Well, give us just 1 example of 'SOMETHING' coming from 'NOTHING'!!!

JUST 1 thing that qualifies under the 'Scientific Method'!!!

LT AND TUNA, let's see your evidence that qualifies under the 'Scientific Method'.
'Scientific Method' says that it must be able to be quantified in a lab.
That means, it must be proven true or proven false in the lab to be called 'Scientific Method'!!!

Everything you both have provide thus far has been rhetoric, conjucture and bro-science.
Let's see real science from you two, please.

8) 8) 8)

 

[LittleTom]

LOL you argue for real science when you just spew that load of garbage out... Im good man its arguing with the insane. You say we have been spewing bro science...

Well, give us just 1 example of 'SOMETHING' coming from 'NOTHING'!!! Your own fucking words but again your magic man is the exception to the rule... who is spewing fairy tails.. Its you. You just cant comprehend that shit was here... those big rocks and gas planets were here long before us. It makes more sense that they popped out of some third dimension than your heart warming gospel BS.

Anyway brother I am out. You contradict yourself at every turn grasping at straws to believe in ghosts. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

 

[zombieslayer]

Religion can't be proven or disproved any more than you can prove or disprove String theories. To argue an opinion is a waste of time because at the end of the day it is nothing more than the opinion holders belief. The only person more foolish than the person who insists their belief is correct, is the person who wastes their time insisting it isn't. But that's just what I believe.

T-bar
T-Bar, I agree with your sentiment, I think.

What I am arguing here, quite clearly too, is that to "prove God" or to "prove evolution" falls outside of 'Scientific Method' which measures things and prove/disprove things in a laboratory.
'Scientific Method' deals which Physically reproducible experiments.

'God' AND 'Macro-Evolution' can't be reproduced in a lab, and can not be proven/disproven in a lab, therefore are not 'Scientific Method' but are MetaPhysical ideas.

We can logical debate and reason over these MetaPhysical ideas.
And that is what I'm attempting to do.
And it certainly comes down to what we are will to put our Faith in. God or Macro-Evolution?

But remember, Ideas have Consequences.
And how someone/anyone views there origins, how they came to be an alive being, will determine how they live their lives.

And for BLACK LIVES WHITE LIVES ANY LIVES TO MATTER, Evolution does not give us that.
Because with evolution we are ALL a bunch of grown up germs.
But, with GOD ALL LIVE MATTERS.

What someone believes really is their own choice.
But, let's be completely honest with each other, and not say 'Scientific Method' has proved either, but let's be completely honest and say "This is what I choose to believe."

And I'm saying we have REALLY SOLID reasons to believe God created.
8) 8) 8)

 

[zombieslayer]

LOL you argue for real science when you just spew that load of garbage out... Im good man its arguing with the insane. You say we have been spewing bro science...

Well, give us just 1 example of 'SOMETHING' coming from 'NOTHING'!!! Your own fucking words but again your magic man is the exception to the rule... who is spewing fairy tails.. Its you. You just cant comprehend that shit was here... those big rocks and gas planets were here long before us. It makes more sense that they popped out of some third dimension than your heart warming gospel BS.

Anyway brother I am out. You contradict yourself at every turn grasping at straws to believe in ghosts. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

LittleTom
Sorry LT,
But again, rhetoric with no evidence.

 

[LittleTom]

Thats all the bible is. Sorry you believe in a bunch of made up stories....

 

[zombieslayer]

Believers are gonna beleive. Non-Beleivers are gonna use science. So now you discount the science to fit your beleifs.

tunaman7
Your quote would be more accurate if it were stated, "Believers are gonna beleive. And 'Scientific Method' can not prove/disprove God or evolution. So as a believer in evolution, I choose to believe evolution."

Btw, I agree with your Carl Sagan quote.
And that quote APPLIES TO YOU, AS WELL AS ME.

8) 8) 8)

 

[Hogslayer]

The evolution theory, is pushed to remove accountability. People are being told you can do whatever you want, act however you want. You can decide whats right and wrong, you dont have to live up to any moral code. Read Genesis ch 3 the message is thousands of years old. Evolution is using "scientific theory" too make the same argument as the serpent in Genesis ch 3, which is you decide right and wrong for yourself and you dont need to answer to a creator.

 

[tunaman7]

The evolution theory, is pushed to remove accountability. People are being told you can do whatever you want, act however you want. You can decide whats right and wrong, you dont have to live up to any moral code. Read Genesis ch 3 the message is thousands of years old. Evolution is using "scientific theory" too make the same argument as the serpent in Genesis ch 3, which is you decide right and wrong for yourself and you dont need to answer to a creator.

Hogslayer

 

[tunaman7]

LT AND TUNA, let's see your evidence that qualifies under the 'Scientific Method'.
'Scientific Method' says that it must be able to be quantified in a lab.
That means, it must be proven true or proven false in the lab to be called 'Scientific Method'!!!

Everything you both have provide thus far has been rhetoric, conjucture and bro-science.
Let's see real science from you two, please.

I can't argue with believers. I mite as well argue with a wall. The evidence is there...either you beleive it or dont.

 

[zombieslayer]

LT AND TUNA, let's see your evidence that qualifies under the 'Scientific Method'.
'Scientific Method' says that it must be able to be quantified in a lab.
That means, it must be proven true or proven false in the lab to be called 'Scientific Method'!!!

Everything you both have provide thus far has been rhetoric, conjucture and bro-science.
Let's see real science from you two, please.

I can't argue with believers. I mite as well argue with a wall. The evidence is there...either you beleive it or dont.

tunaman7
Your attachment on your above post describes you as the religious one.

I have yet to reply with hostility.
You and LT HAVE both replied with very open hostility.

I have replied with evidence.
Logical and reasoning evidence.

You both have yet to reply with logical or reasoned evidence, OR empirical evidence that can be verified by 'Scientific Method', BUT only with conjecture, rhetoric, theory and quippy little attachments.

Sounds like you're the religious one, by your own definition on your attachment.

And this is not suprising.
Atheism IS a religion, because a religion is worldview by which you see the world,
and how you see the world is how you live your life.

Atheism is man's attempt to not be accountable to anyone but himself.
Which is exactly like Hogslayer was saying in his above post. Great job Hogslayer!!!

And if man is not accountable, then right is what we say it is, and wrong is what we say it is, and you end up with what we have in the USA.
People killing people because they thought it was right, at the time they did it.

The starting point to ending hate and bloodshed is to admit that we are accountable to the Creator.
8) 8) 8)

 

[zombieslayer]

Reptiles and birds share common skeletal traits. Dinosaurs were found with feathers. The Legs of dinosaurs and today's birds are very similar. Evolution happened.

tunaman7
This is purely fiction.

Feathers HAVE NEVER been found on dinosaurs.
Show us the evidence, please.

And birds' bones are hollow otherwise they would never get off the ground because they would be too heavy!!!

And feathers are an ENGINEERING MARVEL!!!
We have yet to create something so amazing for flight.

And not to mention, natural animal flight is an ENGINEERING MARVEL!!!
And BIRD flight, INSECT flight and BAT flight are ALL DIFFERENT from each other.

So, let me guess, we're supposed to believe that ALL the different kinds of flight evolved too?

I don't have that much Faith!!!

It takes far less Faith to believe that an Omnipotent Being created it,
than it does to believe in a
hocus-pocus, abbracadabra, Rabbit out of NOTHING, fairy-tale-for-adults-who-don't-want-to-believe-in-God called evolution.

I have to go where the real logic and real evidence lead me.
8) 8) 8)

 

[zombieslayer]

Thats all the bible is. Sorry you believe in a bunch of made up stories....

LittleTom
Rhetoric again and incorrect.

The point of my argument has not been to debate the merits of The Bible.

My points have been:

1)That it is far more logical and reasonable to believe in a Omnipotent Creator, than to believe in a
hocus-pocus, abbracadabra, Rabbit out of NOTHING, fairy-tale-for-adults-who-don't-want-to-believe-in-God called evolution.

2)And that Ideas have Consequences, and that the logical consequence that follows Evolution is that as grown up germs we can do whatever we want, to whomever we want, whenever we want, and NONE OF IT MATTERS.

3)And that is why our American Culture is in such bad shape.

4)And the only way to stop the violence and bloodshed is to realize that we are accountable to HIM.


But I am willing to debate the merits of The Bible if you want.
We can start a new thread, or continue hear, or continue through pm's if you like.

The Bible as a historical document is VERY accurate, and VERY reliable, so much so that MANY archaeological discoveries were made by following the information contained in The Bible.

Please hear me,
I am not here to bash or judge anyone, only to help our Brothers, and our Nation if I can, one person at a time.
In my about 3 yrs here, to my knowledge I have never bashed anyone.
I think my track record speaks for itself.

Let's all go where the logic, reason, and real evidence lead.
8) 8) 8)

 

[LittleTom]

Bedtime stories for frightened children

 

[R2D2]

i am getting ready for bed, LT. Will you read me a story?

 

[tunaman7]

Beleive or dont beleive. I am just as entrenched in my non belief as those that do beleive. So arguing about who is right is a waste of time. If am right and there is no afterlife then I will never know. If you are right then we will meet at the heavenly gym and get a good workout.

 

[GRIM]

Beleive or dont beleive. I am just as entrenched in my non belief as those that do beleive. So arguing about who is right is a waste of time. If am right and there is no afterlife then I will never know. If you are right then we will meet at the heavenly gym and get a good workout.

tunaman7bump

 

[T-bar]

It's pretty clear...

 

[zombieslayer]

Beleive or dont beleive. I am just as entrenched in my non belief as those that do beleive.

tunaman7
This is intellectually honest and I agree.
Thank you for that tunaman.

So arguing about who is right is a waste of time. If am right and there is no afterlife then I will never know. If you are right then we will meet at the heavenly gym and get a good workout.

If you are right, and there is no afterlife, then you are right that you will never know.
But if I'm right then it definitely does matter in the NOW and in the AFTER,how we live our lives and treat others.

But, I do not agree that it is a waste of time, because as Socrates stated centuries ago, "The unexamined life is not worth leading."

As self-aware creatures, we should take time regularly to reflect and examine WHAT we believe, AND WHY we believe it, AND where the logical conclusion of our beliefs, if followed out to the fullest implication, will lead us.

What I've been saying all along is that Ideas have Consequenses, and that the idea of MACRO-EVOLUTION (from amoeba to ape to man) has the logical conclusion of what we are seeing now in America.
NO RESPECT FOR LIFE OR HUMANITY.

Just like the logical justification for murder can be draw from the Qu'ran, this logical justification can be draw from Evolution(which says that we're all just grown up germs).

If it were as simple as us meeting in the Gym in the Sky, then I would be wasting my time trying to discuss any of this, but it is not that simple.
BECAUSE, if I'm right,
our Thoughts and Actions have Consequenses NOW and AFTER we leave the planet.

Which makes it worth it, to me, to take as many Brothers and Sisters with me as I can, when we leave this planet.

 

[zombieslayer]

It's pretty clear...

T-bar
I agree T-bar.
It's very clear, we all do.

8) 8) 8)

 

[LittleTom]

I agree T-bar.
It's very clear, we all do.

8) 8) 8)

zombieslayer
Last word mother fucker... no just you need it and thats what you ignorant fucks dont get. Its people like you that make me rather eat dog shit than agree with anything you try to force down peoples throat. I dont know how many times guys have tried to end this a nice way saying lets just go our separate ways but there you are again, chiming in with your tired played out shit. Just fuck off and try and save people else where. I dont give a fuck who is right or wrong but I am sure sick of your holier than thou attitude about "saving" people. Just fuck off already..

8) 8) 8)