Boston Bombers

[JackMehoff]

No I gotcha, just thought that looked funny capitalized.

The point I was making in the OP is that we have plenty of examples in our society of privileges and rights that have become restricted once the minority ruins it for the majority. It seems time that this same principle be applied to Islam in America.

You want to own a gun? Fine, but we're going to do a background check on your ass and add your name to a govt list.

You want to join a Mosque? Fine, but we're going to do a background check on your ass and add your name to a govt check list.

I'm agnostic and I really don't care one way or the other whether or not our country was founded on Christian beliefs or flying unicorn beliefs. As long as members of your religion don't start blowing people up, you have every right to fly your unicorn to the front pew every Sunday morning.

doworkwhere is the line drawn though? Timothy McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic,, belonged to the NRA, was a registered Republican, and I believe voted Libertarian in the last election before he was locked up. Very "normal" religious and political beliefs. Still blew up a fucking ton of innocent people

 

[Hanzo]

I hope no one dignifies that with an answer.

 

[TSizemore]

JK TS.

HanzoNo, not at all......wanted to jump in, that's all..I'm Southern Baptist..... ;D

 

[GRIM]

We are not built on christian beliefs :/ Even though the vast majority of founders were christian, not all of them were, and out of them not all were very religious :/

nowhere in the constitution does it state jesus, or christian god. nothing but very vague phrases that anyone, even not religious can get behind.

oh so the old testament doesn't count, yet it's still in the bible, still used for sermons. umm ok, back tracking @ it's finest,

The bible has been proven to be a group of stories that ancients picked through and chose those that are in the bible, most of which came from ancient religions that existed well before christianity..

 

[GRIM]

BTW I could have sworn Thomas Paine was a founding father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine#Religious_views

Before his arrest and imprisonment in France, knowing that he would probably be arrested and executed, Paine, following in the tradition of early eighteenth-century British deism, wrote the first part of The Age of Reason, an assault on organized "revealed" religion combining a compilation of the many inconsistencies he found in the Bible with his own advocacy of deism, and calling for "free rational inquiry" into all subjects, especially religion.

About his own religious beliefs, Paine wrote in The Age of Reason:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

10 commandments our constitution really? I'll just link to one of the first search results
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/TenCs.htm

Proven origins of the bible. Again one of the first results.
http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm

Paine even agreed with this..

 

[TSizemore]

Ok....first of all....Our founding fathers based "our" constitution on the freedom of Religion...Period! The whole purpose of the Exodus from England to here was the Tyranny rule of the King in mandating what religion was acceptable. The Pilgrims wanted to worship in the way "they" saw fit. Yes, they weren't all "Christian" as you like to use the term. They were for the most part "Weslyn's" and Mason's (if I remember right)
The Constitution was a document declaring our autonomy from England and stating that we are a different people with different values, not a set of "commandments". The 10 Commandments were used as our guide for establishing our laws!

As for the Old Testament....It is Relevant! Old Testament is Jesus Christ Concealed, the New Testament is Jesus Christ revealed. The Old Testament compliments the New Testament.
Thomas Paine, like others in History, had a problem with "organized religion". I have a problem with Organized Religion. But, there is a difference between organized religion and Christianity. Organized religion will take any intelligent person to places they don't want to go.

Come on,...Really?? You're gonna pull out "The Council of Nicea" Article. Geez!! Alright, fine!
First, the Bible is a collection "accounts" not stories.
second. Yes, there was a vote from the "church" leaders to establish the canonization of the books of the Bible. And, yes, the council of Nicea was responsible for that. But, there goal wasn't to go find a collection of stories from ancient times and compile a list of the books of the Bible....but, remember that wasn't until the 300's AD!! The Bible had already been written by then, and read every Sabbath Day in the Synagogues for a thousand years! The New Testament was what was added and some of the Minor Prophets. The Church used certain criteria to establish the canonicity of those books and if they passed...they were added to the Bible. Was there a possibility the Church was corrupt......Absolutely!! That's the whole reason Martin Luther nailed the 95 thesis to the church doors. Because he read the word and realized what the Church was teaching and the way it was acting was wrong. Again, it was "organized religion"...not Relational Religion.
The Bible is True....Period.
The real question is.....If I'm just a "lacky" for believing it, which by definition means I try to live by it, which means an outcome of Heaven for me, then what harm have I done in this life. I will have lived a good life, and done right by people, and been a decent human being.
But, If I'm wrong about believing the Bible, then, I'm still a decent human, trying to live by the Golden rule and still being the best Human I can be. Where have I gone wrong??

On the other hand.....If you choose not to believe the Bible, and You are wrong......then what's your end outcome??

Either way, whether I'm wrong or right....I'm OK. Other's on the other hand......not so much.

 

[RockShawn]

Ok. Tsize is definitely hero here. You said what I couldn't put into words perfectly. I love the saying "what if I'm wrong...what if I'm right" and many will look at my undertakings here and doubt my beliefs and salvation for that matter. I'm still sinful, nothing changes that, but I believe Jesus covered that, not that I keep sinning, but that I strive everyday to be in a relationship with Him event To the point of walking away from any dream I may have or goal I may want to accomplish.

Didn't mean to turn this thread I to a religious topic, but the fact to the OP is that we all have the ability, the propensity to do horrific things. Even with "sound" beliefs. It's a choice you make. Muslims, on the greater part, are told through their religion that jihad is the way to eternal happiness. That mass violence brings them glory. That is the line drawn in the sand. It's the only organized religion I know of that believes that way.

Do we as a county have the right to disallow such religion based on the fact that jihad is directed toward anyone not believing Islam ie all us citizens who are not Muslim. Honestly I think the religion could be judged as a weapon of mass destruction. That's the point. The govt wants to ban guns because some misuse them. Why do they not want to ban a religion who's teaching put us at even greater danger.

 

[GRIM]

The 10 commandments were not the guiding light behind our laws, these laws against stealing, killing, etc prexisted the 10 commandments.
They are 'duh laws'
Most of the 10 commandments are not in law, in fact we have laws against them.

Yes I should have said the NT, the OT is mostly made up from Greek mythology, Pagan stories and other ancient religions.

I know a lot of people are big into their religion so I probably done on the topic.
What is portrayed from a religious standpoint to a historical standpoint are drastically different.
I'm Lutheran BTW...

 

[Hanzo]

The 10 commandments were not the guiding light behind our laws, these laws against stealing, killing, etc prexisted the 10 commandments.
They are 'duh laws'
Most of the 10 commandments are not in law, in fact we have laws against them.

Yes I should have said the NT, the OT is mostly made up from Greek mythology, Pagan stories and other ancient religions.

I know a lot of people are big into their religion so I probably done on the topic.
What is portrayed from a religious standpoint to a historical standpoint are drastically different.
I'm Lutheran BTW...

GRIM
I think it's kind of a moot point. When Jesus was on Earth he replaced the 10 commandments with 2. "Do unto others ...." and "Judge not ...". The reason Jesus came to Earth was to save us from authority (religious mostly, as Jesus also had a problem with organized religion) and from ourselves, and to reveal to us the Spirit of God, which resides in all of us. It's the voiceless voice of true reason, our conscience.

 

[RockShawn]

The 10 commandments were not the guiding light behind our laws, these laws against stealing, killing, etc prexisted the 10 commandments.
They are 'duh laws'
Most of the 10 commandments are not in law, in fact we have laws against them.

Yes I should have said the NT, the OT is mostly made up from Greek mythology, Pagan stories and other ancient religions.

I know a lot of people are big into their religion so I probably done on the topic.
What is portrayed from a religious standpoint to a historical standpoint are drastically different.
I'm Lutheran BTW...

GRIM
I think it's kind of a moot point. When Jesus was on Earth he replaced the 10 commandments with 2. "Do unto others ...." and "Judge not ...". The reason Jesus came to Earth was to save us from authority (religious mostly, as Jesus also had a problem with organized religion) and from ourselves, and to reveal to us the Spirit of God, which resides in all of us. It's the voiceless voice of true reason, our conscience.

That's funny you bring up the judge not, we just started a series on this. In depth it's pretty revealing and hard to completely understand. But there's so much more to it than just "judge not Lest you be judged" I actually wouldn't mind opening a thread on it if anyone was interested. My pastor has unraveled it pretty well.

Grim I'm not one to pass judgement on anyone's affiliation. Never have been. To me, Lutheran, Presbyterian, baptist, church of Christ, are all still caught up in traditions they have established about Christianity instead of a true relational embodiment of God's word. I grew up COC and my grandfather still believes a guitar in the church is satan himself.

 

[Hanzo]

... still caught up in traditions they have established about Christianity instead of a true relational embodiment of God's word.

RockShawn
Excellent point bro. Jesus explicitly forbade rituals, etc. because it tends to take the light off of the Light, if you will. Church is supposed to be a place for Christian fellowship, not a place to go for social or cultural purposes.

That'd be great if you start a thread about Matthew 7:1, I'd like to delve into that topic with you. I'm also a History major and I love to study religion because it's such a large part of history.

 

[ODINSBLOOD]

BLAH BLAH BLAH...................... lol CANT prove anything about anything when it comes to the bible or Jesus or any of the stories for that matter. the only thing factual about religion and its followers is humans have a need to feel as if they belong to something bigger and greater. Also people need someone or something to turn to when things are tough. I dont fault anyone for their religious beliefs. What I do not like is when people try and give me un-factual information as fact.

Humans by nature are weak by our own self doing. We are self destructive. And out own intelligence fails us even when things are the simplest. Was there a jesus?? who knows... does it define my life? NO The only thing that defines my life are my own actions. Nothing else. I am a good person and always have been, even go far beyond what I should to help others. AND I ASK FOR NOTHING IN RETURN. That has nothing to do with being a good christian, IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BEING A GOOD HUMAN BEING AND HELPING YOUR FELLOW HUMANS.. ABOVE ALL. I DONT CHEAT ON MY WIFE, DONT BEAT MY KIDS I guess I am the non typical heathen... lol

I will see my brothers in the halls of Valhalla. WHat better place could a man want to go???


and hanzo is gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he fucks sheep.. boy sheeps

 

[dowork]

It's so fascinating how some of us can accept a particular religion as the most natural thing ever, and yet some of us just simply can't see it.

I was raised Souther Baptist and one day I just came to the realization that none of it resonated with me at all. Just seems so overly complicated of a story.

Omnipotent God creates mankind, knowing full well they would fall into sin, and the only way to avoid damnation is for man to believe in the saving power of his slain Son's blood.

Just sounds so overly dramatic to me LOL.

No offense intended. It's very interesting how, to some, this sounds completely plausible, and to others it sounds like a B rated sci-fi script.

I was told that when I left my faith behind I would feel a sense of loss, misdirection and emptiness. To be honest I'm quite content and happy.

You and I are not that different. By your following God, you have disavowed thousands of other gods. By my agnosticism, I have simply disavowed one more god than you.

 

[GRIM]

For me it was when I actually started fact finding and reading outside of church material.

 

[Hanzo]

and hanzo is gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he fucks sheep.. boy sheeps

ODINSBLOOD
Hahahaha!! But, when I was driving down the road the other day I passed a pasture where the sheep were lined up against the fence. They weren't baahhhing, they were saying "Crooossss".

Anyway, religion is a matter of faith bro.

 

[Hanzo]

To me, thing is, you shouldn't let the actions of humans define your beliefs, or your feelings about anything. Seems to me that many people have been jaded by what others have done in the name of their god or religion. How could anyone not admire a truly devout Christian life? Even you, OB. Just sayin'.

 

[dowork]

To me, thing is, you shouldn't let the actions of humans define your beliefs, or your feelings about anything. Seems to me that many people have been jaded by what others have done in the name of their god or religion. How could anyone not admire a truly devout Christian life? Even you, OB. Just sayin'.

Hanzo
Can you define what a truly devout Christian life is?

And there'd better be some goat fucking in there if you're hopeful of acquiring my admiration.

 

[ODINSBLOOD]

To me, thing is, you shouldn't let the actions of humans define your beliefs, or your feelings about anything. Seems to me that many people have been jaded by what others have done in the name of their god or religion. How could anyone not admire a truly devout Christian life? Even you, OB. Just sayin'.

Hanzo
what is a devout christian life????? What is their to admire? 99% of christians cant even follow their own teachings. Like adultery just for shits and giggles.. Doing right by others and your family??? why would I need to be a christian to do those things??? I dont need a god to get through the day or to get through the tough times. that is why I have a family that loves me and when I need to turn to someone for help I can turn to them.. I dont need a higher power to guide me through life. I am a man of my own means. I dictate my life's path.

Not to mention more people have died under the name god and christ than anything else.. The church has done more genocide than hitler stalin and anyone else we can come to think of combined. Regardless of what domination one wants to align themselves with. it is still the fact of the matter it was done for the same cause, to corral the masses and to tax its congregation. not for the fact of spreading faith and understanding, but to line a mortal mans pockets. Look at how many crimes have been committed in the name of jesus. It is like saying I am a nazi but I dont agree with hitler.... I know you see what I am saying

faith and religion is kind of an oxymoron.

 

[TSizemore]

Darn it....on the phone again...... 😡

 

[Hanzo]

To me, thing is, you shouldn't let the actions of humans define your beliefs, or your feelings about anything. Seems to me that many people have been jaded by what others have done in the name of their god or religion. How could anyone not admire a truly devout Christian life? Even you, OB. Just sayin'.

Hanzo
Can you define what a truly devout Christian life is?

And there'd better be some goat fucking in there if you're hopeful of acquiring my admiration.

Simple my friend. Treat others as you'd have them treat you(unless you're into BDSM, but you know what I mean).

As for the other part, you'll have to ask cross (can't get used to odinsblood).